Brian Chan - Wall-E (CP)

Oruhito · Post by **Oruhito** » November 26th, 2008, 3:55 pm

I thank Anermak for the sincere motives, but what he did is still wrong: unless he did in fact get permission from Brian Chan. If he did NOT get permission from Brian Chan,than it is illegal. He uploaded a complete folding sequence onto the internet for everyone to see: whether he said not to distribute it or not is irrelevant.

pharmjod · Post by **pharmjod** » November 26th, 2008, 4:18 pm

I wonder how many people here emailed Mr. Chan to alert him to the unexpected violation of the Origami Geneva Convention that someone actually dared diagram a model that until now, only existed in CP form. Did they do it in the hopes that they would be smiled upon favorably by a certain demographic here on the forum? Or perhaps out of some overinflated sense of justice and or self rightousness? Is it really necessary to suggest something is "illegal"? I was of the mindset that we could just thank both the creator of the model and the diagrams together and go about our merry way. Sheesh. The diagrams will disappear soon enough, without the assistance of tattletales and navelgazers.

Max · Post by **Max** » November 26th, 2008, 5:22 pm

Imagine it would be your model and you were planning to publish it somewhere. I would not be very happy about this, and i would also reconsider publishing further CPs of my creations.

Oruhito · Post by **Oruhito** » November 26th, 2008, 6:02 pm

pharmjod I'm a offended that you would insinuate that me pointing out the possible legality of a subject is 'pretentious' or 'self righteous'. If anything it was purely altruistic: my words were conciousness raising for other members of the forum. I wasn't being a tattletale or a navelgazer at all - I was simply observing that this could have a certain outcome. Much like informing them that 2+2=4 or that stealing from a store is illegal. Did I tell any of the forum moderators? No. Did I tell Anermak to take it off? No. I was bringing awareness to those who perhaps were not aware. As Max mentioned, imagine this were a design of your own you were planning on publishing. I certainly would not be happy about it. Top designers like Lang, and Chan, and Satoshi etc, deserve our cooperation and respect. It's miraculous that they continue to publish considering the things that have happened on the forum. All I said is that if Anermak DID get permission (which I doubt seeing as he planned on deleting them) than fine. BUT if he did NOT get permission, than he is breaking the rules.

HankSimon · Post by **HankSimon** » November 26th, 2008, 6:37 pm

No good deed goes unpunished

- Hank Simon

Sadarac: The way that all browsers work is that anything that you look at is already "downloaded" to your computer. The "hard" part is to figure out how to rename and save the download permanently. What Unknownfolder said should work. If it did not, try File >> Save As... to do roughly the same thing.

If your computer doesn't have much disk space, you might spend a few dollars on a USB stick.... but there is no guarantee that a new USB stick will work on an old computer, if it is running Windows 98 or older.

chesslo · Post by **chesslo** » November 26th, 2008, 8:56 pm

so, would diagraming a model but not for wide distribution and only for personal use be illegle?

Joe the white · Post by **Joe the white** » November 26th, 2008, 9:55 pm

Oruhito shares many of my feelings. Nothing is perfectly black or white, but the main issue in origami copyright is respect. Its good that Anermak made the model available to more people, but bad if he did not ask permission. No author is "the man", they're a person who volunteers to share their work with you (yes, even if you're buying a book). The problem itself isn't limited to the forum, but the entire origami internet community (mostly with piracy). Even with a disclaimer that files will be deleted and not to share them, its still available to the entire internet, and not everyone will obey that.

At any rate, its best to give your favorite authors incentive right?

Chesslo, "personal use" means just that, use for your person only. If you want to draw a diagram for yourself and not share it, thats fine. To share it though would require permission. (both legally, and honorably)

I'd be interested in the outcome of the recent origami copyright convention/retreat, anyone have any information on that?

chesslo · Post by **chesslo** » November 26th, 2008, 10:31 pm

ok thanks for clearing that out!

pharmjod · Post by **pharmjod** » November 27th, 2008, 12:59 am

Here's my problem, and I in no way intend for this to spiral into a legal/ethical discussion. Mr. Chan has something like 84 models listed on his page and has 2 diagrams of models up. I didn't do an exhaustive search, so maybe he has more. My point is, it doesn't seem like he has a real interest in diagramming. I don't blame him. I tried to do some hand drawn ones once, for fun. It wasn't. If all of these artists that do the designing are planning on coming out with a book or releasing diagrams, perhaps they could just say, hey, I do intend to do a book sometime in the near/distant future or whatever. Just post the intention here on the forum or on the site. I would be happy waiting. Heck, even if Mr. Chan does still come out with a book or whatever, I will eagerly turn over money to him for said venture. As it stands though, I guess I get annoyed when people who do have the time and ability and desire to diagram get somewhat talked down to or harrassed on here for doing so. Thats all I'm saying.
If I were to design a model, I would SEEK OUT people that are good at diagramming and enlist their help, either for pay or for a share in the glory or whatever. I don't pretend to know Mr. Chan's mind or his feelings on the subject, but I know if it were me, I'd give a shout out to someone that was talented enough to take the time to diagram my work without any thought for compensation, just the greater good of having a model out there. But that is just me. I know even if I were a designer, I'm not going to get rich off of it. I don't think I'm entitled to any diagram. In fact, I had resigned myself to the notion that i'd never be able to fold Wall-E because I suck at CP's. I was ok with that. It's still the wallpaper on my computer and I enjoy it very much. I mostly was extremely pleasantly surprised to find that Andrey had done such an excellent job and posted it all for free. I'll drop it from here on though.

And for what its worth, I have a HUGE origami book collection. I love buying new origami books and enjoy supporting the authors and designers. So don't think I'm looking for some sort of entitlement to any of their work.

qtrollip · Post by **qtrollip** » November 27th, 2008, 2:40 am

I have decreased my activity on this forum mostly because of discussions like these. They keep popping up and there is always some finger pointing between members that goes with it. Which is a shame, because we are all here because we have one thing in common - origami.

I am not here now to pick a side, but want to mention one thing.
If Anermak (or whoever) asked Brian (or whoever) if he could draw the diagrams and make them available on the net, one of three things could happen:
1. Brian (or whoever the designer is) could sit back, sip his whiskey/light a joint, and say "Sure thing, buddy, that would be totally awesome dude. Peace"

2. He/she could slam their fist on the table and curse and say "No way, these are for me only and not to be enjoyed by anyone else...ever!"

3. He/she could say :"I am actually planning to make diagrams myself, so I would appreciate it if you dont distribute the diagrams. Thank you"

So to me the issue is whether, in this case Brian, was contacted and asked. If so, great stuff.
If not, I think he was supposed to be asked. That would have been the right thing to do ethically (whether possible or not)
As in my examples above - there is a 2/3 chance we will see the diagrams at some stage - now or later....

unknownfolder · Post by **unknownfolder** » November 27th, 2008, 3:34 am

Guys, this really has become a bit of a flame war. They are quite bothersome and are against the rules. If you disagree you should really settle your differences privately because all arguing in a thread does is divide people. Moderators will handle any infractions. Members should not debate when the real decision comes from the moderators.

Also, look at the title it says, "How hard Wall-e" not, "Argument over copyright infringement laws."

Sorry if I am only making it worse, but I do not enjoy arguments on this forum that is generally pleasant for me.

pharmjod · Post by **pharmjod** » November 27th, 2008, 3:43 am

Oruhito, I want to publicly let you know that I apologize if my statement was overly harsh and seemed directed fully at you. It is never my intent to actually hurt someone or to try to be deliberately offensive. I was raised better than that, however sometimes passion gets the better of us and we go a little overboard. Obviously this is something that many people have very strong opinions about. Contrary to what you might think, I actually don't disagree with you.

mrsriggins · Post by **mrsriggins** » November 27th, 2008, 7:51 am

pharmjod wrote:Oruhito, I want to publicly let you know that I apologize if my statement was overly harsh and seemed directed fully at you. It is never my intent to actually hurt someone or to try to be deliberately offensive. I was raised better than that, however sometimes passion gets the better of us and we go a little overboard. Obviously this is something that many people have very strong opinions about. Contrary to what you might think, I actually don't disagree with you. The details of the discussion are too much though for forum back and forth. My biggest concern is that in our fear of offending a designer we might also end up discouraging potentially equal talent, such as Anermak and others like him that are practically bursting at the seems with talent, energy and time to contribute. So in all of this, I truly hope that greater collaborations can occur. If you would like to discuss further, I welcome PM's.

Not to continue the off- wall-e - topic but pharmjod you have to understand that people like a lot of folder live off of the money that they make folding origami. It isn't just a hobby but a career. How will brian be able to sell a book of diagrams and make money and thus continue designing if the diagrams are readily available online? Well he won't be able to make money and then we will no longer have such a talented designer creating bits of origami genius for us anymore... now that truly would be a sad day. This is not to discredit anermak's talent because we all know he is a great folder. You mention that you have only found 2 diagrams for brian's models- that's because he is most likely planning to publish the rest of his diagrammed models in a book. As it is he offers a wide range of cp's for models which is far more generous than a lot of designers and brian doens't even have to so that. He could give you nothing at all. The only way anermak was able to make the diagrams in the first place was because brian was kind enough to release the cp to the public. The things I fear is that because of people abusing a certain designer's coptrights that they will stop sharing there designs... We've seen it happen on this very forum before do I even need to say the name???? Everyone knows that story by now and it's sad, very sad, especially for new comers to origami because then they do not get to share in certain things because other people ruined it for everyone.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » November 27th, 2008, 9:14 am

Seriously guys, cut it out. We've been over this already. Copyright issues are a grey area, and we'll never agree on everything.

This topic is about how hard Wall-E is to fold; not about whether Brian Chan agrees with what Anermak did.

anermak · Post by **anermak** » November 27th, 2008, 9:17 am

Unfortunately, I did not immediately able to enter the debate. The situation in which I was already clear ... If the forum moderators decide to delete me from the forum, I respectfully treated for it.
This diagram has been published for those who have asked for assistance. For meet all requested via PM I have neither the time nor the desire.
Now i know, that such assistance does not need many more of these diagrams, I will not publish, though, and began to make diagrams for some models H. Takashi and S. Kamiya, today I remove them from my computer. I hope this modest diagram does not interfere with future disclosure talent by Brian Chen.
Smarter even published photographs of folding CP did not outraged, but photos transferred in graphic format caused a storm of emotions, such illegal charts can be found on the Internet, hundreds, and as shown, most of them have nothing to do with schemes, which were subsequently published authors in various editions. And make so much noise from independence look at the process of folding, strange ... IMHO